Talking to Fabio Capello (1946) is always a pleasure. He doesn't beat around the bush, his football analysis is concise, to the point, and he speaks with the authority of a legendary coach. On the occasion of the Globe Soccer Gala, we reviewed the current situation, with special detail on Spanish football and, of course, on Real Madrid, which he coached in two different periods and which does not seem to be working with Xabi Alonso who, in his opinion, is lacking flexibility in his approach.In the voting to choose the best player there are always discussions. Since you are a member of the jury of the Globe Soccer Gala I will not ask you who you voted for, but tell me: Who has been the best footballer you have seen play?

I was lucky enough to play a match with the Italian national team against the Russian national team in which Pele played, it was one of his last matches. Maradona I also count, of course. And Messi. These are the three who have had something different, they are football geniuses because they did things that you didn't even think about. Finding these players is something unique

And the best player you have coached?

R. Ronaldo, the Brazilian. And after him, Van Basten, close. When I coached Ronaldo he had no injuries, but he didn't want to. He didn't like to lose weight, he liked life... And I kicked him out of Madrid. But if you ask me who was the best, it's easy: Ronaldo, by far.

That he didn't want to train unfortunately has happened with many great Brazilian footballers. For example, Ronaldinho.

His problem was not training, it was losing weight. At Real Madrid he weighed 94 kilos and I asked him: 'When you won the World Cup in 2002 in Japan, how much did you weigh?' '84,' he told me. 'Well, you can't be 10 kilos heavier now, Ronnie,' I told him.

Ronaldo Nazario is the best footballer I have ever coached, when I had him at Real Madrid he was not injured but he did not have the desire, and I kicked him out

Fabio Capello

Were you surprised by the high level that Paris Saint-Germain reached under Luis Enrique, winning six titles last year?He had a great season.

I was surprised because to start a new adventure like that with such young guys is not easy, the important thing is that those who came in new showed that they are very, very good. In particular the midfielders. PSG has a midfield with a lot of quality, who know how to position themselves, with a lot of personality, and they are not afraid. When you have a midfield of this level everything goes through there. They are the players who touch the ball the most, and with the quality they have, they make it easier for their teammates to score goals, or to defend when it is time to defend. They know how to position themselves very well. In addition, PSG also had a goalkeeper like Donnarumma who saved the result on several occasions. Everyone said he was the best goalkeeper in the world. That's Luis Enrique's credit, he did a great job.

It is curious that PSG finally won the Champions League after many years of betting on great stars, and just when they no longer have such a prominent one, they succeed.

Yes, one of the most important things is to sign top-level players and then place them on the field in the best way, with the system with which they can enjoy themselves the most. So 'chapeau' to Luis Enrique's work, because he got them to press a lot. He is a coach who innovates, like getting on top to see the movements of the team and improve the quality of his vision of football from above

It seems that great coaches are having more and more influence on the way their teams play. Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Flick, Arteta...

Every coach puts his personality and his idea of the game, but that does not make you win titles. If the players do the work that the coach wants and the results come, they will follow him. But if with what their coach asks them to do they do not feel good, the results will not come. In the world of coaches this is important, especially in the day to day. You have to find a system of play with which the players can enjoy, develop a system that brings out the maximum potential of each one. Because many times you place a player in an area of the field that he does not like even though you know that he does not like it. And that can't be good.

"I would tell Xabi Alonso that you have to make the wine with the grapes you have. If you want to make champagne but you don't have champagne grapes, you won't make champagne.

Fabio Capello

Speaking of systems, how are you seeing Xabi Alonso at Real Madrid? He is finding it difficult to implement his style of play.

I always say that you have to make wine with the grapes you have. If you want to make champagne but you don't have champagne grapes, you're not going to make champagne... When you arrive at a new place you have to know where you're going to work

-But Xabi Alonso knows that club very well.

Yes, he knows him, but he knows him as a player, which is not the same as a coach. As a player the most important thing is to train, lead an athlete's life and, on match day, to play. As a coach you have to think a lot, you have 25 players and you must see where to put them to give the best performance

The performance of several of his stars is not good. And on top of that, they are not working off the ball as much as he would like.

But those footballers have never pressed, never, and they are not going to do it. They didn't press with Ancelotti either. It's one thing to go back and get into a zone where they help the team, but do you really want them to press? They don't have that ability, they can't do it. It's the same as with Leao at Milan. We're talking about players who when they have the ball hurt the opposition, and when the team doesn't have it they should come back, but not to press

That can be understood with a superstar. The thing is that today if in a team two or three players do not work without the ball at the same time it is very difficult to defend.

Now it seems that everything consists of pressing, and what you have to do is to place the team well on the field. Then there are individual cases in which a footballer if he does not press, ok, does not press, but when we have the ball has to do something good, different, and that's when you have to demand. If he doesn't work 100% without the ball, let him do it at least 70%, let him stop something to the opponent. When you have players who make a difference this has to be thought about carefully.

What do you think about the Vinicius case?

He was perfect. In front of the whole stadium, in front of all the fans, is not the place to solve it. You have to talk later, in the dressing room, and above all apologize to the team. You have to have respect in the dressing room, there are 24 teammates and everyone wants to play. Because Vinicius committed a lack of respect with the player who entered the field in his place. The coach is not the important thing, it is that teammate.

These Real Madrid players have never pressed, never, and they are not going to do it. They didn't press under Ancelotti either

Fabio Capello

Do you think it is possible to succeed in today's football if two players do not do their part of the work in the press?

-R. Pressure is important, but I watch City play and Haaland doesn't press much either... Some teams press up front, and others do it correctly at the back. If there is a player in the other team who when he has the ball does not hurt you, let him have the ball.

Does a coach need more experience with top teams to coach Real Madrid?

-R: It's not a question of experience, but of leadership. There are teams and teams, teams where you arrive and everything is calmer, and teams where everything is a little more difficult.

It's not the same to coach Bayer Leverkusen as it is to coach Real Madrid, is it?

Of course not. Everywhere you go there is something different. And the more stars there are, the more difficult it is, because they also have their own leadership, and you have to get them to put that leadership in favor of the team, not just in their own favor

You have to get the stars to put their leadership in favor of the team and not themselves, because having a negative leader kills you.

Fabio Capello

You have always said that managing a dressing room with many stars is the most complicated part of football.

Yes, the most complicated always. I've already told you that we kicked Ronaldo out of Madrid, and he was the best footballer I ever had. The most difficult thing is to have a negative leader, because it can be an important problem

Does that do a lot of damage to a dressing room?

-That kills you. Because there is always some player who is not on the coach's side, who plays less and is not happy. And if they form a group in there...

In the end, it seems that Ancelotti knew how to manage all the leadership.

-R. Carlo is 'the teacher'. He was my player and I know him very well. He has a natural leadership: he seems lazy but he is not lazy, he seems calm but when it is time to tell the team things clearly, he tells them. He knows how to keep the team on his side.

Mbappe is performing spectacularly at Real Madrid, with 58 goals last year. However, since he arrived, Vinicius and Bellingham have been far from their best for a year now. Is it difficult to get the stars to gel?

They had a season when the three of them were at the same level. When Mbappe arrived, he started with problems for three months, when everyone was waiting to see him, anxious. These are moments of form in football. The important thing is to see how they can complement each other on the pitch

-Well, Mbappe and Vinicius are finding it difficult.We have to be clear with everyone and tell them what you want from the team. It's not just about Mbappe, it's about the team, what you want them to do: to run, to help each other, to train like this or like that... That's the coach's problem, he has to solve those things.-Before you were talking about PSG's midfield. How do you explain that Real Madrid are having obvious problems with playmaking while Modric is playing so well at Milan and shining at 40 years of age?-A: Yes, but Luka is tired, a little tired, although he is playing very well. Real Madrid in midfield no longer has great quality. You think of Modric, Kroos and Casemiro and where are you going to find a midfield like that now? That has been Real Madrid's strength all these years.

-Is that the main problem with the current Real Madrid team?

Yes, of course. When you have a very good midfield, you already have half the problem solved. The goalkeeper and the midfield are the key, because they help the defense and the forwards. You have to know how to make the precise play at the moment, the exact moment in which to put the ball in the right place. And if you don't have that quality, you have to make a lateral pass or a backward pass.

Real Madrid no longer have great quality in midfield, and that has been their strength all these years

Fabio Capello

What do you think of Barcelona's style of play? In Spain there is a debate about whether Flick takes too many risks with such a high defensive line.

Bayern's football is very good, but they take too many risks, they always go to the limit. I have already seen many teams that prepare the way to nullify it. In my opinion, Flick takes too many risks, but as long as he wins..

-At just 18 years of age, Lamine Yamal is already the star of the team.

-That's one thing...! He's getting better with every game! Really, Lamine does things that are very difficult to do. He plays, he has a very good vision of the game, not only when he has the ball, also giving important passes. He is the future. He is going to fight these years with Mbappe for the Ballon d'Or, but let's see who wins the Champions League.

Simeone has just completed 14 seasons at Atletico Madrid. What do you think?

It is surprising. When I arrived at Madrid in 1996, Atletico changed coach every year, and he arrived and 14 years already doing a very good job! It is very commendable. You can only see this in the English championship, that a coach like Wenger or Ferguson stay a long time in a team. I think that after five years a coach has to change, try to find innovations, do different things. In that sense Ferguson did a very important thing: he changed his coaching staff to evolve. Because if you stay with the same assistants always, it is very difficult. To maintain that competitive mentality you have to transmit something, and Simeone transmits it. He has not changed much the system of play, more or less he signs the players he needs for the style he wants. That's why I think he's doing a great job, certainly has a lot of merit.

Barcelona play very well, although I think Flick takes too many risks with the defensive line, they are always on the edge, but as long as they win...

Fabio Capello

In the two seasons during two different stages in which you coached Real Madrid (1996/97 and 2006/07) they won La Liga. We have since learned that in those years Barcelona was paying the vice-president of the referees. What do you think of the Negreira case scandal? Do you understand that sporting justice has not acted?What do you want me to say?

They tried to stop us but they didn't succeed... Ha, ha, ha! They didn't make it. Think about the effort we had to make, the strength of that team and what merit we have. If you think that it is always worth winning, after this it is even more worth it. We won against everyone! I remember people saying: "That's how Madrid wins". Well, no, it was more than that. Ha, ha, ha!

You joke, but it's actually very serious. In Italy they had a similar scandal, 'Calciopoli', in which some clubs manipulated refereeing appointments. Juventus were relegated to Serie B

-But they didn't pay, mind you. And with this Negreira thing, nothing has happened. That's a question for you Spaniards, not for me. Because in Italy we did act. I won two titles with Juventus, I have the two medals in my house, but the team was relegated to the Second Division.

-This does not put the sports justice system in my country in a good light...

-It doesn't seem like it, no. If something this serious has happened and the reaction is: "Come on, this has been a joke..." And we're not talking about a joke, are we?

Speaking of referees, there is more and more controversy with the use of VAR.

Leave it, leave it... This is a subject that makes me very angry.

- Can't that way of refereeing in England that convinces everyone be exported and brought to the Spanish league or the Italian league?

-R. No, no. Referees are a mafia. They don't want to have former players for the VAR, who know the movements of football, the movement that a player makes to stop, to help themselves... And many times they make decisions that are not correct, because they have not played and do not know those movements. A player is touched in the face, he throws himself to the ground, and they whistle. But why do you whistle? If I'm 1.90m and the other 1.75m, when I move my arm is at his face level, why do you whistle? It drives me crazy this matter, crazy.

Do you think that VAR would be fixed by putting a former footballer in charge?

-R. One! Put one who is there and tell the referee: "Well, it doesn't seem like a penalty to me, or it does seem like a penalty to me." With UEFA we analysed 20 situations in which penalties were awarded, they were reviewed by former players and former coaches, and six of them were penalties and 14 were not.

With Negreira they tried to stop us but they didn't succeed, they couldn't, we won against everyone. If winning always has merit, winning after that has even more merit.

Fabio Capello

This summer it's the World Cup. Which team do you think has the best chance?

-R: Good question. I like Spain a lot, France always, they have Mbappe but also other good players. Also the English, who are doing very well. And let's see what happens with Brazil, with Ancelotti.

-Luis de la Fuente is doing a great job with Spain, winning titles and playing very good football, what do you think?

I like it a lot, because it has changed the system of play of Spain, a Guardiola style of many passes, for more vertical passes and a faster football, not only to touch until you get bored, playing very open. He is doing a great job.

Referees are a mafia, they don't want former players in the VAR and many times they make decisions that are not the right ones

Fabio Capello

-What do you think about the fact that 48 teams are going to participate in the World Cup? Aren't we ruining football by squeezing the players so much?

That's true. Now, with five changes in each game, you need a lot and many players can play, but as always each team has 14 or 15 starters of a higher level, and the others can help. But yes, I think there are going to be too many matches in the World Cup.

How do you explain what is happening with Italy, who will play a playoff in March to see if they finally participate in the World Cup? This has happened to them several times.

In AC Milan's starting eleven there is one Italian; at Juventus, only two; Inter have four or five; Roma, two or three. That's the key. For the future we don't have many opportunities. The training system has failed, there is a lot of tactics and little football. This is the problem in Italy. At 12 years old, children do tactics, why tactics already? You have to touch, touch, touch, handle the ball and know the A, B, C, D of football. I have lived in Spain and I see that the kids like to touch and touch. Technique, technique... Now football is faster, and if you don't have technique, where are you going? Are we talking about pressing?